severity_softly | I'm disgusted.

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I'm disgusted.

I haven't read (until now) or participated in any of the "was or wasn't Hotch raped" debates, but I have heard about this sort of opinion before: some people seem to want this storyline WAY too much. And that makes me incredibly uncomfortable.

I haven't made up my mind one way or the other whether I think that's what happened, and I would be fine either way, but the "that storyline would just be SO-OMG-AWESOME" comments sort of make me feel queasy. I hadn't read them until it came up in my journal. You know, it's my journal, and I really sort of don't want to hear "OMG I HOPE HOTCH GOT RAPED". I really, REALLY don't. Do I think that storyline might be compelling? Sure. Do I think it makes sense and could have very well happened? Sure, if it's played right. Am I practically pissing my pants with joy at the idea that Hotch might have been brutally (as if there is any other kind of sexual assualt) raped at his weakest moment by the man he most wants to catch, and that he'll probably be scarred for life? No, and I think it's sort of a disgusting way to think.

Sorry if any of you all feel that way. I haven't read any reaction posts because I haven't made up my mind, so I might be pissing some of my flist off. But whatever. It's how I feel. I don't want to listen to squeefull discussion about rape, tyvm.

I am leaving this unlocked, but if anyone decides they want to argue that this sort of squee is acceptable, I may not reply, as I will probably get more disgusted. I hold nothing against the people who have left those comments mentioned. It's their opinion, and they're welcome to it. I just happen to find it all distasteful. If anyone decides it's acceptable to find these comments in my journal that I mentioned and start wank, however, IT'S NOT, and I may unfriend/ban people over it. You're warned.

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No, no, I'm with you 100% on that.

After last week a did stumble across a few such discussions and it left a really bad taste in my mouth.

Thinking that, if done right, it could be an interesting story is one thing, but jumping about and squeeing with excitment that a character might have experienced something like that is quite another.

Thinking that, if done right, it could be an interesting story is one thing, but jumping about and squeeing with excitment that a character might have experienced something like that is quite another.

Yes. This. EXACTLY.

A friend of mine was all upset about these conversations the other day and I didn't really understand because I was just seeing it from my pov, that it would be interesting, but that I could go either way on the storyline. NOW I understand what pissed her off so much.

Amen! "It would be fodder for SO MUCH good fic!" I read that a couple of days ago and wanted to reach thru the screen and punch the OP in the face. (This is why I'm not a member of any fic comms anymore. LOL)

The violation of Hotch's body with Foyet's knife with Foyet's running commentary and totally skeevy body language and peacocking is more than enough of a "rape" than anyone should need. Do I personally think that Foyet sexually raped Hotch after stabbing him? No, I don't. I think that stabbing him and making sure Hotch knew that Foyet was completely in control of Hotch's future was Foyet's way of victimizing Hotch, and implying that Haley and Jack were next on his list was the icing on his nasty cake.

The fact that this is all women squeeing and HOPING that Hotch was, well I'll just borrow Whoopie's dumbass term here, rape-raped just makes me completely ill.

I know! Seriously, WOMEN saying "yay rape!" Not that anyone should say that, but you know...

I agree on Foyet getting all he needed from what we KNOW he did, but he did make that comment about impotency. I'm not sure that makes sense if he didn't do SOMETHING. I originally thought he emasculated Hotch, but I'm still waffling on the whole thing.

I think the point of him mentioning impotency is that he is basically saying to Hotch, "You all think that only impotent men stab people but my penis works and I'm going to stab you a whole bunch."

I don't think that Foyet would rape Hotch in order to break him down, I think it is entirely possible that he would rape someone Hotch is close to in order to break Hotch.

Foyet, to quote a Buffy villain, "goes for the hurt instead of the kill," at least when it comes to breaking an intended victim down.

I'm torn on whether I think Hotch being raped would be a good story line. I know that grown men get raped, but we already learned in the first season that Hotch was abused as a child (they never say sexually, they lead you to believe that is was non-sexual physical abuse. I also think it would be way to difficult to manage raping someone while trying to stab them in non-fatal areas. I think attempting to do so would give the victim a moment of opportunity that would lead to them taking charge of the situation.

And you just know that if Hotch found a moment of opportunity, the team would have found Foyet's body in the apartment and then taken Hotch to the hospital.

The writers of the show tend to really like abusing Hotch, Reid, and to a lesser extent Morgan.

It will never fail to amaze me what harmful, disgusting behaviors people will try to excuse simply because it's ~fandom~ and therefore it's OKAY! NOT REAL PEOPLE. DOESN'T MATTER!

Rape is NOT sexy and there's nothing glamorous or awesome about it. It COULD be handled well in a fic, as a plot point to character development, but as a PWP... erghghg. There's not enough DNW in the world.

Edited 2009-10-03 14:52 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it could be handled well in fic, IF it was dealt with realistically, with all the consequences and such. Same with in the show. It could work for me if it's done well. but the level of excitement about it in fandom sort of freaks me the fuck out.

You don't believe in the magical healing power of the penis??

Otherwise known as "they just need to be fucked by the right person to make everything okay"

Shoot me now. ijs.

WORD - I'm so glad it's not just me that found those kinds of comments very disturbing. There is nothing sexy about rape and you don't get to "heal" someone with Magic!Sex afterwards either.

I agree that as storyline it could be done very well, but I don't understand the jumping for joy at the thought of it.

I couldn't agree with you more. People can have their own opinions, and this is mine.

I think a large majority of fandom has a skewed view of what the lasting and longterm effects of rape are and I agree 100% with what you're saying.

I personally think it's awful to wish rape on someone even if they are fictional.

I agree with you. I haven't read a lot of the comments but I have seen a few like you mentioned. It could make an interesting story if it were handled well--either fanfic or show wise, but I'm not jonesing for it in any way, shape or form. I think Hotch is going through enough without adding rape into the mix. (And really, I'm just waiting for all the Magical!Healing!Sex stories to start showing up. *shudder*)

I don't think it will come out on the show that Hotch was raped, mostly because I can't see CBS okaying a story line with a main/regular male character being raped. That may be why it's so ambiguous--or we're reading more into the scene than may have been intended--it's hard to say. I also don't think Foyet emasculated Hotch--had it been that, I'd think Prentiss would've had more of a reaction when she read Hotch's chart than what she did. Of course, this is CM, so, who knows?

But yeah, squeeing over Hotch being raped--that'd be like squeeing over the fact Morgan was sexually abused as a child or that Prentiss had an abortion. It's simply and totally distasteful.

I didn't squee about Prentiss' abortion, but I was impressed. Is it really that odd to be impressed by a show that is willing to deal with things that tragic or not, are still rather taboo in today's world? Don't get me wrong, I really hate "going there" for going there's sake. But it's still something that impresses me when it comes up naturally (I actually felt the same way when Sex and The City did an episode where Carrie reveals she had an abortion in college and deals with it, by musing what her life could have been like, visiting the babydaddy from back then who works at a restaurant and pondering whether she should have told him, etc) and a show talks about it honestly.

I don't like abortions, I would never want to get one myself, but again, a show that can discuss it honestly does impress me on some level.

IMO, an actually well told male rape or rape recovery story would be similar to me. But I'm way too jaded to truly believe it could be well done, so even if the show went there, I have a hard time believing I could have anything other than really mixed feelings about it. That's the problem with such touchy subjects, there's just so much potential for utter FAIL.

I have to admit, I'm puzzled by people who think that it would be a good ground for fic. Because for me, all I can think of is, wouldn't that make shipping and particularly slashing like a million times harder? Maybe I just don't get it. Because regardless of how I might feel or not feel in canon way, as far as slashing is concerend, it would throw down a mountain high roadblock rather than opening doors.

Okay, squeeing about the possibility is rather disturbing to me.

In fact, I was quite shocked that it was the impression that I walked away from the episode with (the possibility that Foyet had raped Hotch), as generally my mind tends to not go to those places. Or tries not to anyway.

I totally agree..and I don't think Hotch was raped. I think Foyet was just trying to 'impress' on Hotch that right at that moment he had total power over him and that all his skills as a profiler weren't doing him any good. He was mocking the profile and the BAU at the same time. (As to rape on prime -time..I believe that in an episode of "THe Shield", one of the characters was forced to perform a sex act on the man who had him prisoner. But I think that show was on cable, but that is one that I can think of.) Not that I'd want to see that happen to Hotch or anyone else, for that matter. So all this squee about 'we can't wait to see the rape-fic' is just sick and I don't blame you for being upset.

I wouldn't call it jonesing. I don't really like rape stories for either sex. However, if CM did it? I couldn't help being impressed because it's so unusual and rare and it would very much blow my mind simply because (1) I just don't buy it at all at this point (2) if they could really do it in a way that ties together all the little moments, like the way Rossi and Prentiss have been acting etc. However, this is precisely the reason why I just don't think that it's the case simply because even though CM is really good on some types of subtle writing (like Reid turning down narcotics seasons after the storyline happened and without any explanation for people who aren't aware of the backstory), so far it's been my impression that they have never successfully tackled anything this big and this serious. Especially not to this extent.

I have to say I was impressed for similar reasons with the Morgan backstory. Simply because it went so against expectations. And it's not like I enjoy Morgan being sexually molested by his childhood mentor. But that CM did it and did it with Morgan, it was just so going against the grain, I still have a hard time not seeing it as unusual and brave for lack of a better word from an artistic POV.

(though I've said it before, Morgan is probably the main reason why a Hotch rape story would feel kind of over the top or redundant to me; even if the situations are very different)

Anyway, even if they left the issue open, I just still have a really hard time truly believing that this is what the writers would be going for. Of course I could be underestimating/misinterpreting the writers there when I have a hard time buying that they are truly that interested in this topic.

Words nearly fail me.

Me, myself, I dont believe Hotch was sexually assaulted by Foyet, I believe Foyet was just grandstanding and showing his power because he certainly knew he could not make Hotch fear him. What other people choose to think from interpreting the same scenes, and what the writers/creators of the scene were going for.....we're going to get a million and one interpretations.

But for someone to be squeeful about anyone being sexually assaulted or harmed in anyway by another human being is disgusting. Its not "good fic" or good anything, it is difficult subject matter and while I can go so far as to say I would be "impressed" if a network television show decided to try and handle it in a sensitive and well-written manner, I have to say I have serious doubts they could, though St. Elsewhere did in the 80s.

With the way some things go in fandom sometimes, I dont see this storyline going anywhere but downhill because some people's minds are warped and they think because its fictional its a big old game for their amusement or entertainment and if rape of anyone, male or female, is their amusement they have serious issues IMO.

I've been sort of out of CM fandom recently, and therefore didn't even know there was such a debate going on. Granted, given the recent episodes I can see how the possibility is there and how it could be handled (if done well), but that is definitely a far cry from being overly excited about the prospect in a general way.

I don't mind reading fiction in which that has happened, so long as it's handled well, and serves a good purpose. However that doesn't mean I actively wish it on anyone, whether they're fictional characters or not.

And I find the idea that some people are excited about the prospect slightly disturbing, but alas, what do I know?

oh dear.

I don't think this has anything to do with me and my fringe-level participation in all things fandom but...I still worry that I could be implicated with those fans that want the Hotch-got-raped storyline.

so to clear things up: do I talk a lot about how I like men in pain? yeah, probably. does that mean I want people to actually be debased (sexually or otherwise) against their will, be it in a fictional tv show or in real life? no. argh. I guess my fear is that those fans who "want" to see a Hotch-got-raped storyline will get conflated with those of us who like the "pain thing" (call it a kink if you want), but don't actually enjoy the idea of people being hurt or humiliated against their will.

....in other news, these are the reasons why I stay out of fandom.

Way back in the 80's, NBC's St. Elsewhere had a main male character get man raped and it caused quite a stir, but they handled it in such a way that it was realistic. However it was very possibly a 'jump the shark' moment, and the show may have lasted one more season, I don't remember.

Personally, I don't think they are going to go there with Hotch, nor do I want them to. I don't think that Foyet raped him, but they probably did want to leave it vague enough to make some viewers think he might have been.

But on the flip side of the coin, if the lead character were female, I don't think they'd be so hesitant to go there. I know statistically women are raped far more often than men (or at least females report rape more often), but that makes me cringe as well.

I may not have expressed it correctly earlier, but I think they may have wanted to show that the act of stabbing someone is a very violating act that can be seen as a type of rape, which could lead profilers to make the leap that the perpetrator is impotent.

I think that if they were going to portray any of the profilers being raped (as an adult) it would probably be by an UNSUB that takes a certain type of man and rapes them. I think the Powers that Be at CBS would feel that it would be easier for the audience to take if the profiler in question was attacked "in the line of fire" instead of coming home and getting attacked totally by surprise.

...which is the way it would probably happen.

And I hate to see it, but if any character got raped on the show, it would probably be Reid.

Which makes me sad. But I can see how CBS would consider him the most appropriate victim.

Which makes me sad. But I can see how CBS would consider him the most appropriate victim.

But isn't it to CM's credit that they have actually often gone against the stereotype in these matters? Like rather than doing "women in peril" stories they write a sexual abuse story for Morgan (and now possibly Hotch), while the women get stories like going vigilante (Elle) or taking a beating while keeping their cool (Prentiss)? Aren't they also the show that went with Morgan as the sexual abuse victim, aka the person probably anybody would have least expected just going on tv stereotypes?

This discussion actually makes me wish I knew a bit more about the statistics of male rape. Because when they did Morgan's story one thing I thought was really good about it was that IMO it's an important point to make that black kids can get molested or taken advantages of too and that it is just as horrifying and tragic as it would be with the stereotypical "white, blond, blue eyed little girl with ponytails" that usually comes up first when pedophilic cases are discussed.

Same for Prentiss (or Sex and The City when they did an abortion storyline). IMO it's an important and good point to make that (1) there are woman who have abortion and no that doesn't necessarily have to make them evil and (2) Just because somebody has an abortion it doesn't mean that it doesn't weigh on her mind. That it doesn't have to be either extreme, cold hearted Satan loving bitch OR woman who will go insane with guilt for the rest of their lives. IMO many women have their own various ways of dealing with it and imo this way of dealing with it is pretty good and subtle. Not flashy making a point, but more like slice of life.

But with male rape, I don't know. For example I have no idea how frequent it really is outside of certain high risk environments like prison, or what the liklihood is that somebody who works in law enforcement would be affected by it (basically whether it would work as "this is a big enough issue that it is necessary to address this problem" rather than it being something that would be very rare and unlikely in real life [which is basically how I felt about the "zomg, Reid is forced to become a drug addict because the meanie unsub injects heroic Reid against his will" which really was just 2 steps away from "evil bikers attack Pamela Anderson's character on Baywatch and force her to get a tatoo to explain away the tattoo she got in real life", imo they would have gotten more props from me if they did an alcohol or drug abuse story where the agent does it willlingly rather than come up with a convoluted way for it not be his fault; because from what I hear alcohol is a probably for plenty of law enforcement people [as is divorce, which is why Hotch/Haley is another thing I consider a realistic slice of life for the kind of environment the show is set in])

I completely agree with everything you said. 100%. People being excited about it makes me want to vomit.
I honestly didn't even think Rape until someone mentioned it on LJ. Then I went "Huh? I thought he was just stabbing him (and possibly stabbing in a bad place.)" Then people started to explain the theory and I understood it. I even think maybe it did happen. Compelling story line? Yes. Something I actually want done to one of my favorite characters? No.

Anyway, thanks for letting me comment here. I appreciate being able to discuss this with you guys.

It's kinda hard to explain how great/awesome/compelling is meant in this kind of context, but to me it's mostly in a story context and not in a "yay, rape!" kind of way. For example, I've always been a huge fan of twists that tie together various smaller scenes in a "Wow, in retrospect it now all makes perfect sense" kind of way. But I'd have the same reaction if the show managed to believable sell me on "All this is explained because it is revealed that he's been abducted by aliens!" or Reid is secretly a cylon or JJ is an undercover serial killer or Hotch murdered a guy way back in season 2. It's the method, this undercover storytelling, that's important, not what the story really is.

Of course, precisely because I love turns like this is why I doubt that it's the case here. Because since I love them I'm always on the lookout for them and they show up very rarely. Mostly because IMO the "we make this shit up as we go along" method is the most widespread among tv writers (see: Lost, X-Files, Prison Break). Either that or "Yeah, it's kinda not that deep, but carry on, fans". And in a lot of the cases where the writers actually do want to create something like that it backfires because they do it too clumsily so the supposed twist is actually really obvious and telegraphed miles ahead.

So yeah, to me, if somebody could pull it off well, it would be really compelling storytelling, but I just doubt that this is the case here and if it was, there'd probably still be a ton of caveats that would keep me skeptical for at least a while (and all issues that are totally unrelated to rape being horrible or Hotch having suffered enough already).

I don't really participate in fandom discussions, but I stumbled across this one, and I have to say that I'm disturbed as well. If people in the fandom want to write a fic in which a character is raped, they will. And they do. Sometimes it is done very well.

The thing is, having Hotch get raped as part of a home invasion and stabbing doesn't make any sense. Foyet isn't even a rapist as far as I remember. There's no reason for it to happen. Profiler, Profiled made sense - it was an episode ABOUT sexual abuse victims, and it had a point to it. It helped dismantle some stereotypes and sent the message that it's important to get help if you're being abused.

I don't think Hotch got raped. I do think that Foyet may have gotten aroused by all the stabbing, since he's a sadist, and as a rule, serial killers are creepy. But even if I thought Hotch had been raped, RAPE IS BAD. People who don't get that obviously don't know anyone who has gone through it. Or grasp the concept at all.

I'm so glad to find a large chunk of people and I are seeing eye to eye. I don't agree it happened or did not and either way I really wouldn't want it to have occured even in fanfic (I cannot read noncon fic, it freaks me out.). I'm suprised that fans are excited for it...if I can phrase it like that.

I remember watching the episode and wondering if they were leading up to a rape and also thinking that we were about to get either some awesome storytelling or CM was going to go down the tube because they were going to fuck it up so badly. But, as people are saying, it does make more sense for it not to have happened. I wouldn't be surprised if we get some post-trauma scenes that are reminiscent of rape victims mostly because there was that creepy subtext vibe going and I don't think anyone living through that could NOT have a reaction.

I've seen the yay!Rape! comments in other fandoms, though, thankfully, have managed to avoid them in this case. I get that rape can be used as a storytelling device and, in cases where the author understands how to handle it and that it is not cured by the magic!sexing of any kind (I read more femslash and it does happen there, too), then it can be a fantastic character study. I've even read a fic or two where they were able to write the rape scene where it was not about gratuitous noncon and more about what was going on in the victim's head. But as soon as it becomes about seeing the sexing, it becomes a squick.

I guess my point is that I can see both sides of the debate but am firmly on the "can we not celebrate the idea, please?" side.

Yeah, this. I totally agree.

I initially started getting involved in a couple of "what happened?" discussions, but uninvolved myself quite quickly because (a). I realised it didn't really make a canon difference to me whether Hotch was raped/cut/neither of the above, because even "just" the home invasion and stabbing were terrible violations in and of themselves, but (b). (and more importantly) I was worried that if I continued in the discussion, it might sound like I was saying one of the possibilities was "less hurtful" than the others, when actually I was just saying one might be "more likely," and that it's not possible to judge which is a "worse" scenario, and (c). I too was disturbed about the way the discussion, which had started off quite reasonably, was going. Anyway, that might not make any sense, but hopefully it does. Part of the reason I didn't review that first week was because I didn't know how to tackle that one issue, and it seemed to be the elephant in the room if I didn't mention it.

I think most of the offensive stuff has been said unwittingly by people who don't realise they need to "check their privilege at the door" so to speak - i.e. they don't realise that they're coming at the issue from a gender/ethnic/age/experience/socio-economic level of "privilege" where it's not an issue that they've ever had to take seriously (not neccessarily personally, just at all)... I don't mean that's an excuse for anyone, but I think the offensiveness has probably happened accidentally, not through maliciousness.

I've thought a bit this week about the issue of parody of these sorts of issues - I did joke about some fandom views on the Hotch-got-sexually-stabbed theory in a friends-locked review on my journal this week (the entire review was a parody, and I mocked a bunch of stuff, especially Reid), which I hope didn't offend anyone - it was meant to be mocking of the fandom discussion (some of which, as you said, has been horrendous), rather than mocking of the incident. And I hope that any of my friends who were offended by something I'd said would call me out on it tell me to pull my head in.

On another note, I don't read rape fic at all, because I feel like it glorifies rape, even when it claims not to (sometimes especially when it claims not to).

Anyway, my two cents, sorry it's long. But basically... I agree :-)

Edited 2009-10-05 05:42 (UTC)

Just butting in here. I need to clarify that i don't think Hotch was raped, and i'm definitely not squeeing about seeing this.

I think people are excited for this storyline because CM is a show that can how people dealing with this kind of trauma in a realistic way. It can make very good TV, and brave choice on the part of the writers.

But then again, why am i defending this? I agree with you.

*waves shyly*

Not a mutual friend, just directed here from the inbox... but wow, I have to say that I agree with you. I don't think Hotch was physically raped (and I don't particularly want to see it on the show), but what you're talking about is exactly why I've been steering clear of any of the rape discussions on LJ or elsewhere. It upsets me to no end.

Anyway, I just wanted to pop my head in and say thanks for speaking up about it. :)

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I'm disgusted.

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